In this week’s Industry Buzz podcast, the UCStrategies Experts welcome guest Zach Hinkle, Solutions Program Manager for Interactive Intelligence in their CaaS (Communications as a Service) group. The topic is how the cloud ecosystem is making it easy for the customers to pull together the apps and services they need. Jon Arnold moderates the discussion, and is joined by Experts Blair Pleasant, Dave Michels, Don Van Doren, Roberta J. Fox, Phil Edholm, and Art Rosenberg. Refer to the transcript below for timecodes for each speaker.
Transcript for Discussing the Cloud Ecosystem with Interactive Intelligence
Jon Arnold: Welcome all to this week’s UCStrategies podcast. Today our topic is the cloud ecosystem, with the goal being to make it easier for customers to pull together the applications and services they need. We’re pleased to have joining us this week our guest, Zach Hinkle, CaaS solutions program manager for Interactive Intelligence. I am moderating this call, Jon Arnold here, and with me are the usual host of experts from UCStrategies. We’ve got a lot of ground to cover today. Zach, I want to welcome you to the call. What we’d like you to do first is tell us a little bit about your role working with CaaS and Interactive Intelligence, and then we can talk a little bit more about the broader trends in the industry out there. So welcome to the podcast, Zach.
Zach Hinkle (:45): Thank you very much for having me. Again my name is Zach Hinkle. I’m a solutions program manager here at Interactive, been here roughly eight and a half years in various roles. For the last few years I’ve been within our CaaS group focusing on deploying our software and turning software essentially into a cloud solution, so it’s consumable, in a usage-based manner for our customers.
Jon Arnold (1:10): Okay, great. I think that sets the stage pretty well, and I think that contact center focus is really the important thing here. We know cloud is happening everywhere, but let’s look at this space in particular. So the way I want to kick things off is to have that basic question. Why is this happening, and why is it happening now, and really tied to that is what is the benefit to the end customer? Zach, I’d like maybe if you could start off and then I’ve got a couple of experts who want to weigh in with their thoughts in this. How do you view that; why is the time right now for something like CaaS?
Zach Hinkle (1:41): Well, I guess in general in terms of just cloud applications, the mood is right within the world with cloud applications. People are demanding more and more feature rich applications, whether it be contact center functionality, or a CRM, or even in their personal lives, there are some pretty neat cloud companies out there that have interesting collaboration tools. So I think in general, the climate is ripe for cloud applications, but at the same time people are craving simplicity. We see that with our customers – they want the great functionality that we have to offer and other companies have to offer, but they want it simple. They want to consume, they don’t necessarily want to deal with some of the operational aspects of operating a feature rich contact center; so I think to be honest it’s more a sign of the times.
People want more and more but they want it simple and they just want to consume, so several years ago when companies were looking at ours they evaluated us on the total solution. They really cared a lot about the architecture, they cared about how many boxes there were and it was generally the IT staff evaluating solutions and then they would essentially consult with their business groups. And what we’re really seeing is business groups now, people who are actually using solutions, are the ones making the decisions on what they’re going to purchase and then telling their IT staffs. So architecture doesn’t tend to be as important to them. They want to consume a business solution, which is really a collection of features, but they want to consume it in a usage-based model. They want a strong SLA. They want to know that company’s promise for up-time, and what happens if they don’t have it? And the things that they just take for granted which you used to have to talk about in terms of architecture, but the base assumptions these days is everybody assumes cloud solutions are highly available, they assume business continuity, they assume disaster recovery. And they want operational excellence. And deploying in a premise, they have to worry about all those things. Most companies these days just don’t want to worry about it; they just want to pay for what they use. So I think they crave for simplicity but feature rich applications is driving it.
Jon Arnold (4:01): And also, there’s also a push feature here too, right? I mean the vendors have their reasons to push this architecture out to the cloud as well into the marketplace because it benefits them in certain ways. But I’ll just put that out there for consideration, but I think I’ll move along and get a couple of comments from the group. Blair, I know you wanted to weigh in on this a little bit.
Blair Pleasant (4:22): I think certainly what Zach said definitely resonates and is really what I’m hearing. Definitely what he said about the usage based model being key. I’m hearing this from most of the company’s that I talked to and I think a lot of companies are turning to CaaS because originally they were looking at it because they want to have an operating expense and not a capital expense. But I think really the more compelling reason that companies are moving in that direction is because of the flexibility and that’s true in a lot of different ways. Companies can get the latest and greatest features when they’re introduced; they don’t have to wait for -- have the software assurance and make sure that they get the next release on their platform whether it’s hardware or software. Through the cloud it’s done automatically so when there’s a new feature when you release they just get it, they don’t have to do anything about it.
I think also for customer care and for customer service, what I think is the most important thing is that with the cloud-based contact centers and CaaS, you can support the agents from anywhere, and you can manage the seasonable and variable traffic so you can add agents when you need or get rid of agents when you need, because there’s no software to download to the agent desktop so you can also enable remote agents, which I think is really taking off. And seasonal businesses, whether it’s like a florist or a tax prepayer, they can add agents when they need it without having to deploy the hardware or software. So for me it’s really the flexibility that is the key point and why I see a lot of companies turning towards it.
Zack Hinkle (5:58): In some of our largest customers, those are the top few reasons for purchasing us. They have massive seasonal fluctuations and when they jump to the cloud they pay for what they use as opposed to making a very large capital purchase to service just a couple months of their business.
Jon Arnold (6:17): Dave, you had some thoughts on this as well?
Dave Michels (6:21): I want to clarify something here because when all of a sudden hot dogs get more popular than hamburgers people say, “What caused the shift to happen,” and “what are the motivations and drivers behind this?” But you’ve got to remember that for the longest time we didn’t have a choice. We’ve only had hamburgers, right, and so if you wanted a contact center you had to have an on-prem solution. There was no option. There were some Centrex types of things but no serious alternatives.
So the cloud started emerging and in the early 2000s, the first decade of the 2000s, and it took some time. It was a new concept, it had to be developed, broadband still wasn’t really available and the solutions weren’t quite mature and expectations weren’t set, but over time broadband has become prevalent and the iPhone changed our expectations around cloud services and mobility and you lo and behold all of a sudden the cloud is a viable alternative that’s really important. And people who aren’t considering it are still stuck in the last decade saying, “it’s not real, it’s not there.” But everyone else has gotten past that and moved on. I think the contact center is particularly well suited for cloud services and you know, when I talk about solutions getting mature over time, I mean Interactive Intelligence in particular has been at this for quite some time. I mean they were obviously at the premises-based solution for a long time and now, I don’t know when you guys started on the cloud solution but I know that you reported something like 5% of your revenue in 2009 was cloud based and so you were in this pretty early. And I saw that stat because I saw more recently, in 2013, at the end of 2013 you reported 50% of your revenue.
And so I think that’s really showing that the world has accepted the cloud and in particular the contact center is something that’s always been so specialized that only the biggest firms can afford all the technology and all the solutions to implement this stuff, and the middle market and the smaller firms, they were stuck with basic ACDs. They could never justify all this equipment, unless contact server was a big part of their business. And so now all of a sudden the cloud is viable, mature, robust and available on a per-seat basis. Of course it’s going to grow, and I think that Interactive Intelligence is going to grow right along with it. Those are my thoughts.
Jon Arnold (8:48): Thanks Dave, I’m with you, and I know Don is going to add a few things now to that too. Don?
Don Van Doren (8:54): Thanks, Jon. Dave mentioned a lot of really great points there, too. One thing I guess I would add is that as UCStrategies has been discussing for a number of years now, we’re in a time of really interesting change, technological change, and I think that one of the reasons that people are looking to the cloud is it’s a risk avoidance strategy. In other words, they don’t have to commit to buying, to making a bet on one particular technology alternative and we’re in the middle of some major shifts right now. I just wanted to comment on that one.
Jon Arnold (9:25): Yeah, fair enough. And Roberta, I know you’re very hands on with this stuff, too.
Roberta J. Fox (9:30): I wanted to add to the excellent points of my peers. What’s interesting is I’ve seen examples to support Dave’s points the apps and the performance management – there’s this whole new category of micro enterprise organizations that can get the full featured, but they can get the single user interface and a quick example was one of the first Interactive customers goes back to 2006 and 2007, one of ours, and they became a world wide service provider start-up company and were able to go after an international market because they could just take up the seats when they needed them, take them seasonally, and it’s all with common interfaces, they’ve been able to grow and they’ve never built their own. They just used the Interactive Intelligence offers, so I think performance management – it’s all integrated to design to work and this whole smaller business sector is just great. And then the last part is for organizations that have basic contact centers they can go next generation, add the multi-media, and again they can use it from Interactive and add it onto their existing telecom infrastructure. So I think it’s a smart move on Interactive’s part.
Jon Arnold (10:32): Okay good, thanks. And that’s a good segue to where I want to take this next with you Zach, and that’s the idea as Dave mentioned we know Interactive has been in the cloud space for quite a long time, way earlier than most, and it shows up in the numbers so obviously it’s working. So from your perspective, we know you’re not hands on with the numbers so much, but if you could tell us a little bit about how you see this as being a viable opportunity for Interactive Intelligence? I know you commented earlier a little bit about the kind of preferences you’re seeing from RFPs and how those are unfolding and I think it’d be interesting to hear a little bit more about what you’re seeing that helps validate this as being a success story for Interactive.
Zach Hinkle (11:10): Sure. I think what we’re seeing industry wide is that companies are looking not as much at individual features or individual product lines, they’re looking for solutions for their business. They want feature rich solutions for their business and they want to consume those in ways that are advantageous for them. So in terms of the business model, Interactive is investing heavily worldwide in our cloud solution so we can deploy quickly anywhere within the world. We see it as the future of our business, we absolutely believe premise-based installs will still remain as a portion of our business. What percentage? I think that’s really difficult to say. I would say at this point three-fourths or more of any opportunities our sales folks are getting into they’re leading with the cloud or cloud is absolutely on the table. More and more, a couple of years ago we were hoping for, as recently as a year or so ago we were hoping for roughly 50% of the deals that we were in to have cloud on the table and now I’d say it’s greater than three-fourths. And there are some factors that will still keep customers leaning towards a premise-based inflation but the numbers just keep growing because A, the fears are going away. It’s becoming more mature, it’s becoming more accepted and people want to know about it.
So we see it as a very viable business strategy for us, and we’re constantly looking at how do we provide our software in the cloud in an easily consumable model in a manner that is profitable for us and provides great solutions for customers? So we’re betting very heavily on it.
Jon Arnold (13:01): Yeah, we can see that and it’s showing, it’s showing. So I think on that note I wouldn’t mind broadening us a little bit from where you’re seeing success and also where the broader comms vendors going with this as they’re all trying to follow down this path and building on what you just said Zach, I’d like to hear maybe a bit from Phil and then from Don/Marty about what you guys are seeing out there from your customers. Is this consistent from your experience lately, Phil?
Phil Edholm (13:34): Absolutely. I think it was very interesting the comment that Zach made. Over the last couple of years there has been double digit, 14-15 percent growth in the relative revenue of Interactive Intelligence in the cloud, and it’s calculated I believe on a three-year expectation of revenue from a cloud deployment as compared to a physical deployment. That seems to me to be a valid way of looking at it. What’s interesting is it appears from kind of a discussion that growth will decrease a little bit in 2014, which probably comes back to Zach’s comment that we’re probably in a mode where a solution set like Interactive Intelligence, where the choice between the cloud and the premise doesn’t change the capability set, you see a pretty dramatic in this case probably over 66%, over two-thirds of the users will look at the cloud for contact center as a viable option.
I think that in all is a very interesting view, but I think the thing that we all need to think about in the cloud is that we probably have not seen the cloud yet and the impact of cloud. Very interesting concept that a guy named Timothy Chou, who actually ran the Oracle on demand business back in the early 2000s. He had a concept that there were six models of cloud computing from buying equipment, deploying on your premise, managing with your own people, paying support. All the way to what Google does and delivers for alternative monetization, and his real point was that in the middle of that transition from kind of managed and hosted dedicated equipment to the shared on demand service of the cloud, the big transition is simplification, standardization and repetition.
I thought it was interesting in some of the comments that were made at Enterprise Connect at one of the Interactive Intelligent sessions was that users are much more willing to accept bundles in the cloud in the contact center versus the a la carte ordering of functionality that they want in the premise. And I think that really is the representation of what’s coming in our industry. The cloud is a business model. It’s not a technology. And the business model is that you can get from the cloud a functionality set that is highly defined, highly standardized, not customizable, but it is sufficient to solve your business problems 99%. But the real change is that the cost is going to decrease and I think you’ve begun to see that in contact center.
If you look at the cost per seat of the cloud deployments in the contact center they actually have decreased versus the all-in cost of a deployment on the premise. Obviously the on-demand nature even increases that financial value and capability, but I think what we have not yet really is that impact where you’ve seen it in things like CRM with Salesforce, significant reductions in annual cost of a seat from thousands of dollars to hundreds of dollars. And so I think one of the questions that I think is very interesting to think about is how is that going to happen in the cloud deployments and communications? We still pay $20 a seat in the cloud for a telephony seat; $25 if you include PSTN access for SMB.
The question I think is interesting is, are we going to begin to see those numbers change? It’d be interesting, Zach, to get your thoughts on how much you’ve seen in Interactive those things change and how much that’s opened up; kind of that mid market to you with your solutions.
Zach Hinkle (17:09): Sure. We’re seeing it I guess across the board in the types of companies that are coming at us. We’re still leading with our contact center and in a lot of cases we are being used as a UC platform, but we aren’t seeing as much growth there; we have that platform. But where we see a lot of growth is in customers that have already gone to kind of a next generation type of UC platform and they’re looking for us to integrate to them for those capabilities and then use us for the contact center. So the specific UC space is not a big focus for us; we do have offerings there, but we are not really getting into the pricing wars or anything like that in that space. We still focus on feature rich applications.
And to your point regarding customizations, customers, especially in the contact center space, what we see especially when it comes to things like reporting and how they run their business, the craving for customization is still there and we are constantly working on strategies to be able to provide that, but do it in a scalable manner. In a manner that makes sense, as we grow our business.
Jon Arnold (18:26): Okay, good Phil. Now come back to Don, if you can – do you want to add anything to that?
Don Van Doren (18:34): Nothing specific, Jon; I think what we’re seeing from our client base is, certainly the level of interest is ramping up on clouds without question and more and more people are looking at this for the reason that we said earlier. What is interesting to me is we’re starting to see penetration into some of the larger enterprises; I mean there’ve been a couple of fairly well publicized examples of large insurance firms and other, multiple thousands of customers starting to migrate into this particular method. So clearly I think it’s gaining a lot of traction. I think Interactive Intelligence – Zach’s comment about how they are focused on some of the higher value applications, that they’re adding through the cloud I think is a really good strategy.
Jon Arnold (19:26): All right, good. Thanks, Don. So far we’re kind of painting a pretty rosy picture here of the cloud; we know it’s not all perfect. It’s still a work in progress, just like UC, so I want to just look at the other side of the coin and talk about some of the challenges. We already heard a bit about customization on the plus side, but there have got to be other issues out there and the reason why cloud hasn’t taken over the world yet. So I think Blair, you had some thoughts on that, if you’re ready to jump in on that this would be a good time.
Blair Pleasant (20:00): Yeah, thanks Jon and hopefully Zack can also address how Interactive Intelligence is addressing some of these. When I’ve been talking to customers lately the big issue I hear is maturity and compliance. They’re a little concerned, especially like regulated companies like healthcare, they’re concerned about HIIPA, and high tech and financial firms are concerned about the different regulations that they have to comply with; so that’s the main thing that I’m hearing about as they’re concerned about going to the cloud. And so also about quality of service, there are concerns that sometimes quality of service may not be as good, especially as good let’s say a remote agent who might be working at home, or in an organization where they don’t have MPLS. We talked about customization, so I’d say security compliance, QoS and also loss of control seems to be the big challenges and issues that I’m hearing about. Zach, maybe you can address how you’re addressing some of those issues.
Zach Hinkle (21:04): Well, your number one is absolutely number one at least in our experience. Depending on which industry we’re talking about, and I guess to some degree it doesn’t matter which industry, but everybody has security on their minds. You can’t really go more than a day or two without hearing about somebody’s security breech, and it typically has to do with social security numbers or payment information, but security of their data, and it doesn’t even necessarily matter what their data is, they want it protected and they are becoming much, much more savvy at how to evaluate premise vendors as well as cloud vendors – how is our data being protected? Is it encrypted at rest, is it being transmitted in encrypted fashion? What controls do you have in place? What’s your strategy for certifications? Are you doing self-assessments, or are you bringing in auditors? Who are you bringing in to do those? Are they reputable, are they recognized by the industry bodies out there setting those standards?
So from the Interactive perspective, we’re taking an approach of bringing in outside consultants and going after what we feel are kind of the most common types of certifications. So for cloud vendors, SSA 16, is a big certification that a lot of the cloud companies are going after; we do annual audits to maintain hours. PCI is a big one, especially in the contact center. In so many cases contact centers handle payments, so they want to know how their vendors are going to help them in their compliance needs, knowing that you know your cloud vendor is still only a piece of the puzzle for them.
In terms of QoS, I guess I personally haven’t been seeing that so much in the past probably two years, 2006 through 2010, it was a major issue and I don’t think the market had really awoken as they have in the last probably two years on security. And that was a big thing, but right now it’s all about security and how companies are addressing those. A few years ago we had a compliance person within our organization, and now that team is growing and we have open reqs out now for more people. And our audit team is constantly busy going after regional specific certifications. So right now for us it’s probably the biggest thing that might keep a customer out of the cloud – can we meet their security needs?
Jon Arnold (23:53): Yeah thanks, that’s a big one for me, too, and I think we can do a whole podcast on that topic. I want to see if I can bring Dave into this conversation as well. Dave, so if you are a hot dog vendor trying to get a guy eating hamburgers to switch over to hot dogs, what are some of the other challenges – if you see anything we haven’t touched on yet?
Dave Michels (24:16): Hey Jon, this is serious stuff on contact centers, don’t compare it to hot dogs and hamburgers, that’s just silly. But you know, the security argument and the control argument was what everybody used to argue premises for the previous decade. I think that’s now shifted so that everyone is using those points to argue the cloud. And Blair mentioned things like HIIPA compliance, all that stuff is now available in the cloud; it’s more robust in the cloud. You have to remember that these – the serious cloud providers have dedicated teams, the most advanced security tools, the most advanced sensing tools for suspicious behaviors and things like that. And these are things that have passed what the general enterprise can do; and so not that the general enterprise can’t do it, but most don’t and so most are finding now that when they move to the cloud they’re seeing actually an improvement in availability, they’re seeing improvement in security. And I think that’s going to continue.
Now one area where the cloud has a problem is the internet, and so over-the-top type of services are more or less acceptable for home based and remote users, but in an enterprise facility where you’ve got lots of users, you probably want to see your private bandwidth connections and something like an MPLS connection where you can assure quality of service.
But I see some organizations get in trouble with that because they just do everything over the top, they just put in bigger pipes to the internet and that’s probably not the best solution for a mission critical cloud service. Other than that, I think that we’re still going to see a lot of development, we’re still early in the game. I think Phil made a mention to that in the cloud -- we ain’t seen nothing yet is what some vendors are claiming, and so I think we’re going to keep on seeing a lot of new features and new maturity. I think we’re going to see more yet in hybrid solutions, so in general for example the cloud isn’t ideal for things like paging. It takes up a lot of bandwidth and it’s not that productive; there are some work arounds but hybrid solution where you’ve got some logic on premise that can handle things like that and then you’re using the cloud for most of the intelligence, I think that’s going to emerge as the next wave of improvements; so anyway those are some thoughts to answer your question about some of the weaker sides of the cloud; but all in all I think it’s a pretty strong solution.
Zach Hinkle (26:50): Just to back up your point, we are seeing customers that do struggle with modern security requirements and rather than go through the pain of building up their own security staffs and going after what they’re going to legally be required to do, they’re going to cloud vendors and saying, “Okay well we don’t necessarily want to handle this” or “We’re not prepared to do it, we’d rather just buy it and consume it” as opposed to figuring it out on their own.
Jon Arnold (27:23): Yeah true, true. Okay so listen guys, we’re coming up on time, so we have time for just one more topic and that’s the channel. Cloud’s disruptive for the vendors, it’s disruptive for the customer, but obviously it’s going to be pretty disruptive in the channel. So let’s touch on that a little bit, I think that will be enough for us to round up our time here. Phil, you might want to add some thoughts on that. What are the indications here for the channel and then we’ll swing around to Zach to hear your side of the story?
Phil Edholm (27:53): I think it’s very interesting because the channel, the traditional telecom channels, I think, are very challenged by how they manage the movement to the cloud. If you kind of look at, call it for lack of a better word, the layered infrastructure or layered component you need to deliver a solution, starting from servers to run the software, the software, the devices, the network, support for the software, then services for installation for integration, for ongoing break fix etc., and kind of look at the entire bundle of what does it take to deliver a solution on the premise, whether it be a contact center or a communication solution? And you look at what of those change when you go to the cloud, you realize that for the channel a lot of the places where they used to get revenue actually don’t exist in the cloud anymore. There is no support of the core and upgrading of the core system. So typically your channel partner in many cases would be the organization that came in and upgraded the software and put in the new releases of software. They did things like moves, adds and changes, which as Blair noted, may go away in the cloud.
So I think one of the interesting questions is, is the revenue that can be essentially delivered from the cloud to a channel, sufficient to basically enable the current channels to continue to play there? Or are we going to begin to look at other channels that are newer; and I think in the contact center because the revenue level is a little bit higher, this may be less of an issue than it is in the VoIP space, and I think it’s a challenge that everyone is dealing with which is how do you make this transition from an organization that basically manages a certain set of things, deliver those with their own staff, had margin and therefore profit on their own staff. When a lot of those things in the cloud are not managed in the cloud? I’d be really interested in how you see that changing in your dealing with channels from the Interactive Intelligence perspective.
Zach Hinkle (30:10): Yeah, I think you’re hitting the nail on the head. Traditionally partners were kind of an all-in-one shop. They would handle phones and in some cases they might do setting up the network for QoS, they would sell the servers, they would maintain them, and then they would also handle the software. And when you start looking at the cloud, their model needs to change to be more of a system integrator or a solution provider and deal in providing application functionality and configuration services and consulting services to get the most out of the feature rich applications that are available in the cloud, as opposed to looking for margin and looking for billable hours from some of the smaller components.
The hardware revenue is not there, managing the networks in some cases that’s always going to be there but managing the servers, doing the upgrades, those sorts of things that’s not there. But we have the opportunity, at least what we see of the opportunity for our partners is to focus more on that system integrator or value added partner where they come in and look at how that business is running holistically, are we getting the most out of the agents, and focusing more on consultative services as opposed to traditional vendor services I guess.
Jon Arnold (31:39): Okay, well I think we’re going to have to leave it at that. That’s probably touching on a much bigger conversation. So just before we wrap up I just wanted to take another poll around the group. Art, did you have something you wanted to add to this? I know you mentioned mobile apps earlier as an idea and that might be an interesting thing to touch on before we close out here?
Art Rosenberg (31:59): The big thing that I think is going to change is the way people get access to customer service assistance. Everybody with a smart phone or tablet or whatever, they will be online with online apps, self service apps, whichever it is they do. It has to be protected like anything else in terms of authorization and encryption because it’s remote, but when it comes time for live assistance, they would then click for assistance and choose a way of connecting with voice or video or chat or email or any other form of messaging.
The big thing is then that there’s got to be integration when they say I need assistance, they now have to go from wherever they have their online apps, to a contact center to be routed to the appropriate person, although it doesn’t have to be real time because with new capabilities in terms of queuing you don’t have to wait on hold. They’ll call you back especially through remote, we can get back to you, we know where you are. So there’s going to be a major overhaul of how all that is going to work in terms of customer assistance, that’s multi-modal and it will work with online apps that are going to be customized depending on the vertical market and the company business you’re in, and so on.
Jon Arnold (33:26): Okay great, definitely an opportunity there. So with that I’m going to just leave the last word to Zach, because I’m sure you are seeing an interest in that area for mobile.
Zach Hinkle (33:36): Thank you very much for having me and we agree, particularly with the younger generation that is consuming contact center services, they’re looking more towards “them” centered type communications with contact centers. The idea, especially in the younger generation, of calling and waiting on hold to them just doesn’t seem very appealing, nor did it ever to any of us (who are) a bit older, but that was all we had and expectation levels of consumers are changing. They don’t accept traditional channels for getting what they need out of contact centers, so there is a big opportunity for vendors like ourselves and other competitors to create new ways for consumers to consume the type of functionality that contact centers do provide. They expect that stuff to come to them more than them coming to the contact center. So there is a tremendous push for that, and we’re starting to see that in our business as well. We have some interesting solutions that we’ll be bringing to market.
Jon Arnold (34:47): All right, great. We’ll be watching. So with that let’s give a big thank you here to our guest today, Zack Hinkle from Interactive Intelligence, and that brings our podcast session to a close. We want to thank all you listeners out there for this week’s podcast on cloud communications and the contact center, and thanks to all the experts here. On behalf of UCStrategies, this is Jon Arnold thanking you all for listening and we’ll catch you on the next podcast.